Episode 3: The Black Experience in Non-Black Spaces (MMXX)

You've lived in a few places. I think when we were talking earlier, you mentioned friends, you go to Barbados, often. you talked about New York, you talked about Atlanta, Denver, and Seattle. And I just wanted to highlight of maybe a few of those places in your adult life. So I know for instance, you were in Atlanta and, Denver and Seattle as an adult. So tell me what was the black experience like?

Hadiya: I was looking forward to living in Atlanta because I said, Hey, it's a black city. And I experienced a lot of culture shock being there because it was the first place I've been in the U S where every kind of black person was present doing every kind of thing. Being from Barbados, you see that all the time, but not here.

And what I didn't like, it was like living in social media in real life, everybody seemed to be pretending to be something they were weren't or telling me how I should dress. And they were like, why don't you wear makeup? Why don't you wear heels? I'm like, I'm going to McDonald's it's not that serious.

Or I was trying to freelance and they were saying, well, seeing as how we're both for the culture, can't you like hook me up? No, like I have a product. So I really didn't like the whole crabs in the barrel dynamic of Atlanta. And I had to go.

Plus I was followed home by a white policeman from off the freeway. He followed me for like 30 minutes to my block and I had to pull into my neighbor's driveway. As he pulled in behind me, what was terrifying about this scenario? This white woman was sitting there behind the school bus. So again, early morning, looking at this happening, she didn't say a word. It was a terrifying experience. And the fact that that happened in front of other people that said nothing, I got to go like the South is not a place for me.

Then moving to Denver, Denver's a very interesting dynamic. People don't think black people are there, but there's a lot of black people in Denver, which I really appreciate. It's not for me, not because of anything having to do with the black experience is just, I'm not a bar and beer kind of girl.
Yeah, right there. Country bars are on point though. I will tell you that if you want a good line dance, Denver has it for you. But Denver, as far as the black experience, there's a lot of people who think they're liberal or woke in the white corporate sphere that are just unaware of the unknown unknowns.
And I find that a lot here as well.

Ken: Actually later, we have a different segment that talks strictly about corporate America, but before, we start to talk corporate. I really just wanted to get a feel for what your experience has been like in Seattle or the East side, because for those who don't know, I am located in Shoreline, in Washington, which is slightly North of Seattle, 10 blocks up from the city line.

You. live in the East side, which is Bellevue on the other side of Lake Washington. And those two areas may come off as the same to everybody who hears about our area. You know, like how most cities are larger major metropolitans, it's the same here, but the vibe is very different between both cities. And I think it would be really interesting just to talk about the dynamics on the East side and also the dynamics of being black in the greater Seattle area.

Hadiya: The dynamic is just way, way different, right? Especially because we have a lot of different languages on the East side, I will say Tacoma, Seattle has a lot of different ways to inhabit the black experience, which I appreciate, right. Versus Atlanta, where they really tried to force you into some sort of archetype of blackness here.

You really can find your tribe is what I appreciate about it. So. They have a lot of black arts. They have a lot of black. Everything honestly, that you can find that I like here.

Ken: It's actually a very open ground. I lived in Baltimore before I moved here. And the thing that shocked the hell out of me when I got to Seattle was the collective, this group of black young professionals just getting together and like just rocking it.

Ken: It was really mind blowing, it feels so good to be part of the black community here. Because of scarcity it forms creativity, it forms pockets of things that are super unique and very centric. But I feel like it also creates a opposite side to it, which is like, there is that where you find your tribe and you have a lot of people to rock with.

And then there's also the other side, which is on the day-to-day. Maybe it's a little, I feel it's almost hard to be in this area because it's almost living the country on his own. I feel like the PNW should be called like United nations of Cascadia or something. Right. Because like here, people have moved here and lived here for a long time. So this place breeds its own identity. That is nothing [like elsewhere].

Hadiya: Have you heard the low there's a, Oh my goodness. There's a, I don't want to call it slang, but it's almost a different language where you get some of the old, older locals speak. It's wild. Like the South side has own language and it's amazing to me.

I think for me though, I didn't have school, I was in Barbados. Or I even went to elementary school down there for a little while. And I don't know at what point this happened, I've never equated here with like a black community. I've never missed a black community here outside of the fact that my sister and myself and my cousin were like the only black kids in our elementary school in Denver, or we missed culture when I don't get it.
Now I'll be in Barbados soon. You know what I mean? Like I never have like a pause

It's fine. Or even, I feel like a lot of the culture here is like hip hop driven and I love it but if you ever see me in a club and rap comes on, like, I don't know what to do. I'm going to find a drink. Afrobeat saved my social life on a real level because before that I don't know what to do. My hips don't move to this beat at all.

Ken: So, you kind of have like a different background with ways or black people kind of congregate together, right?

Hadiya: Stereotypically, but what I like about here is I'm finding a lot more, well, we used to call like quirky blacks or off-kilter blacks or, artistic, or like just different kinds of offshoots of what was stereotypically black. Right. Which I really, really enjoy. There was, Alex and, Some people made that whole offer to the collective where they were going on hikes and stuff.

Ken: Oh yeah. Yeah. The camp collective,

Hadiya: right? How dope was that? And Hadiya don't camp, black people don't go in the wilderness, it's not safe, but here it is a group of black people got together and camp collective, you know what I mean? And I love Seattle for that.

Ken: And I also love Seattle. Because of that. As soon as I arrived here, I think it started to feel home very fast because of that.
You just saw in my backyard,

Hadiya: chopping wood. Oh my goodness. I'm so proud of you. I'm so impressed. I can't even explain how I feel.

Ken: It's literally something that I absolutely love, but like here. It creates, I don't know how to explain it, but just this freedom to kind of explore your blackness as it stands and whichever side you want to add to it, it's just some sort of freedom. I really like that about his place. For sure.

Hadiya: I think what it also is highlighting is we've all had this narrative to ourselves of what it means to be black. Right. And I think because the Pacific Northwest is not somewhere that. Let me not say a lot of black people because they're black locals here.

That we really have to like break that narrative of what our blackness looks like and just find out what makes us feel whole and happy and content, satisfied, whatever, what have you. And understand that that is the definition of being black anywhere we are. Right. So I think being really free within yourself to discover the things you want to discover, try new things you want to try and understand, like whatever that is. You're still black that does not have a bearing on how black you are. This is not a comparison from anybody about anybody's. Beliefs or how they view you. Like you are a black human being, you know what I mean?
No matter where you are a space you take up. So I think that's a very interesting dynamic that we get discovered here in the Pacific Northwest.

Ken: Absolutely. And I rock with that. But the flip side of that is that you stick out like a sore thumb,

Hadiya: where

SKen: horeline Washington.

Hadiya: Yeah.

Ken: So there are only two places I've ever felt like that in the whole world and it's Seattle and Stockholm.

Hadiya: Oh, wow. Right.

Ken: Stockholm is very diverse and they pride themselves on being an international city. But when you're traveling through you're going from Oslo and walk into a train, you see yourself and you see this like beautiful dark shade, and then everything outside of you is just like super shiny and like in a good way.

But it kind of hits you like, Oh, i'm, different, and that's actually one of my biggest gripes around here is that sometimes I really just want to go somewhere and just be really incognito.

Hadiya: I feel that I can relate, but I've realized that it's not only like a skin tone thing. It takes a while to assimiliate because it's like, posture is how we carry ourselves.

But I understand what you mean. When I moved to Medina, I found myself making a point to introduce myself to the neighbors, say hi, And be extra friendly when. I'm a friendly person. I'm not that friendly. And then again, when I moved to Clyde Hill, the same thing, because if I come home at 2:00 AM, like, I want my neighbors to be aware.

Ken: I want them to relax.

Hadiya: It's not even about a relaxed thing every day. And it's not only about me, my worst fear is when black people get hurt and doing accidental, dumb shit that white people get away with all the time. So we have like teenagers on the block or whatever. What if their black friend rings a doorbell at 2:00 AM?

Like the wrong doorbell at 2:00 AM. Yeah. If I'm nice and seen as a black person in the neighborhood that you know, is your neighbor, then maybe in the split seconds, like the two seconds, maybe they could belong around here. Maybe this isn't such an outlier, anything that gives anybody pause around any other black person that makes them act on their second thought rather than their first thought is why do the things I do, which is reassuring and stressful all at the same time. I shouldn't,

Ken: There's a way you have to move to call people into like, Normalizing, I hate to use that word cause that's what everybody uses on social media to sound smart, but make it known that your presence is not,

Hadiya: threatening.

Ken: Especially for me, like the black guy walking around, I'll walk into a room. And I'll try to zero down on the sound. I am feeling, even if I'm not able to hear, I can see people's chest movement respond to my presence. Right,

Hadiya: right. Hey, it's really hard. And being able to see a black person taking a walk down the street, like a normal human being, right.
All these things that like regular people do, it helps another person relax just a little bit. Right. Or see, like it's okay to be in Bellevue square park on a Tuesday, but you know, like these little things matter, and you were talking about that book that you're reading about trauma and the body? All those little tiny things like your heart rate goes up, anxiety impacts you and the way you carry yourself and the way you sleep, all of these things, there's a reason that the diseases that black people tend to be plagued with can be traced back to stress.

Ken: Earlier, when you were talking about Denver, you were talking about also well-meaning people who ended up portraying a different energy.
And I wanted to leave some time to talk about that. Talk about dismantling systems. There's a lot of things I want to talk about, but first. Let's talk a little bit about being black in a non predominantly black area and the dynamics that are at play at work.

Hadiya: It's a very interesting dynamic with energy and fitting into spaces or in seattle.
I've noticed a lot of tokenism. A couple of the places I've worked with or associated with, I have been there for like a day or two and all of a sudden I'm in front of all their media, like all of them. Thanks guys. I'm great. Then, like I your only diversity, right? That's super great, I guess, or how you get a lot of lip service and coddling sort of, which seems to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction where I'm like.
This might be racist too,

Ken: you know what you are literally entering the meat of this conversation for me. Yes. Because I have a sense that people are very well versed here with everything that has to do with racism as a whole. And by versed, I mean, like. The language, yes. People can tell you about systemic oppression.
They can tell you about police brutality. They can talk about ways they want to change the community and engage. They actually even can talk to you about reform. They can talk to you about the bills. Like you get all of these really, really, really, really reading, engaging language. But then sometimes you're in those spaces and you wonder. When the energy doesn't feel right when it's put to those things, it also, if it makes the advert effect

Hadiya: it stresses out people on both sides. So I've met a lot of people, white people specifically who say they don't want to, they feel guilty for being white. They don't want to be made to feel guilty for being white. And yes, a lot of that is algorithms of social media and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And fear-mongering, but I like to step away and understand that that is their feelings are valid. Right. And trying to figure out what is making them feel this way. Right. Because we all have to come to the table.

And I would say I worked for code fellows when I first got here and the way they handled diversity inclusion is one of the best things I've seen since I've been here. And it wasn't necessarily, they were very forward with it, but they let it simply be part of their everyday consciousness. And what I mean, when I say that is I heard something that somebody said where it was like, just try to make sure that you were aware of the people advancing in this scenario.

And being conscious of anybody who might being left behind. Right. So checking in with yourself and. Did everybody get that? Does anybody need any for the explanation or because yes, it's our racial thing and it's an equity thing and it's a accessibility thing, but that accessibility thing is also for like neurodivergent people.

Right. And talking to people about how these things, like little things, little changes in their everyday lives. Make a bigger impact than we're doing diversity inclusion exercises today, or, you know what I mean? Like something

Ken: big and demonstrative and because that's not how consciousness is changed

Hadiya: people also forget the human aspect, right. Because. When you're at work, the things that make you feel included or seen are very, very small things. Right? I heard a lot of people when dealing with the protests, when their bosses were saying, you know, I'm not necessarily having conversations with them about it, but I've been seeing what's on the news, just a check-in right.

Cause people want to work. People want to get off of their lives. Right. But I think it does a lot more damage to feel ignored than not. Because I remember the woman I worked with, like the protests were happening and then she was like one day randomly talking about the police or even attacking white people.

Now, like some white person got hurt in Bellevue and I was just like, Oh, so that's what yeah. Want to talk to me about great. I'm glad you're onboard now. Right? You could have just not send anything. Right. So diversity is very important. Racial, awareness is very important. I think we make the changes a lot bigger than they need to be

Ken: if there was a bill that was voted today that addressed financial income for people who are of color, for instance, that would not have the same society impact. I feel as. Those small micro changes in maybe starting first thing workplaces. Right. Because most people congregate there, in doing things in that space, I mean, money is important. Yes.

But. You know, it's, it's almost like a struggle or a fight to, to get to change the minds. Right. And the way you change the minds is by doing things that are a little subtle in like very minute like dismantling systems may work someday.

Hadiya: Yes. the question of dismantling systems. I think one of the things that affects the black community is the disinformation of said systems.
Right? So I think. If we educated black people more and earlier, like in high school, like this is X, Y, and Z. This is how it works. It would be highly impactful. I think what happens now is there's no concrete method and that is by design. The institutions were built against us. Right. So, yes, little things matter and emotional things matter on a person to person and interpersonal basis matters. But I think other larger changes can have a great impact as well.

Ken: Very poignant. So the work in order to get to a place of more equality is not necessarily just relearning what must be done for systems and what must be done in the biggest scale. But also, I mean, this could be at scale too, but we are literally addressing mental health, like the trauma that is created from being black in certain spaces.

And that was a little bit of the message it's like, after this, I am going to have to look for resources that do exactly that. And if there are not that's that's unfortunately right here, like what is out there that allows people to just feel better in their own skin.

And I mean, I'm projecting back into myself, be able to walk into the, the shoreline, trader Joe's or something and feel good because you're going to get bomb produce or something. And not feel that stress of, Oh my God. I just stepped in there or here I am, again, in like my full, strong black menacing, angry ass looking self, although like the cheesiest dude, and this is exactly why.

I think your point is so key, right? Because you start a cue right. You you're going to a space. You, you see people react to you, that reaction you've learned that that's kind of what fear looks like. That's what anxiety looks like. You know, that's what aggression looked like. Maybe giving tools through black folks to just [learn to be themselves].

And, and I don't even think it's just a us thing. Like this is literally like, it's, it's going to have to be like an international effort or something like,

Hadiya: no, for real. But I think I'm learning is there's two sides of that dynamic, right. Where we need to be able to be ourselves in different spaces, other spaces deemed other right.

Where people might not necessarily be accustomed to seeing us. But in order for us to feel comfortable and self-assured in those spaces. Other spaces where we feel completely at home and catered to are very necessary, right. Because that's what feeds us. Right. And if we're not fed, if we don't feel whole, if we're not, if all these things, if our souls aren't glowing and glistening from within, you know what I mean?

It's easier to chip away at us when we go into other spaces and that's why I think the spaces that cater to the black experience exclusively are so necessary. Right? Because even though, again, even though I live on the East side, or even though I do things that tend to be more counter-cultural or bring me outside of what is traditionally the black experience black spaces, I always have like a home-based to go to and recharge.

Even if that Homebase is just me by myself. Surrounded by things that feed me. Right. I think it's really important that we encourage people to find the things that feed them and to go there and to withdraw there and to recharge there, regardless of what that looks like.

Ken: Right. I think if a lot of inner work was done around this, it, it changes dynamics. We walk into those places and we're more confident. We know how to deal with those looks because we have our safe heavens in places that are for us. But we also that confidence, I think in teacher that people, you don't have to carry yourself in a certain way when you're around us, because, you know, and I think it's like an energy that can feed each other, but that plus everything else that's on the ballot, you know, like we can do all of that, but if we don't stop being in spaces where we are, you know, demeaned undermined victims of

Hadiya: of all of the things. I think the microaggressions are the worst. Right. And I think here is really good for a microaggression.
Not only is it good for a microaggression is good for a Gaslit microaggressions. Because people claim to be so woke. Right? And they're like, well, I can't be racist if or now you're blowing it out of proportion or all these little things that you have to deal with here. I think it will go a long way for people not to take everything.

So personally, in the sense of if all this stuff is going on in the media and I don't feel like I don't white people today, like maybe let me just have this one, like maybe not make this about you. Maybe. Maybe I'm trying to recharge. So. That I don't mistake you for the white people in the news, right. Or being able to be self-aware enough to have those boundaries on the other side of that being self-aware enough to understand that people have those boundaries.

It's a lot, that's a lot, all the time and, you know, go therapy and talking about it
Another reson why

Ken: Hadiya is in therapy,

Hadiya: I have a white therapist. And I didn't start for a long time cause I was waiting for a black therapist. And I am so happy that my white therapist is as compassionate as she is. So life comes at you fast

Ken: shout out to my therapist also. shout out to that therapist as well. I don't know maybe, but like, I dunno, this is a parentheses, but a black therapist freaking like secures the leaving life out of me.

Hadiya: Why?

Ken: I have no idea. I just, I don't know what it is.

Hadiya: You think your black therapist is going to tell you to like, get it together? My black friend is not that serious.

Ken: Yeahh and You know, I get that from my mom and my sister. Right? Like, they're always like, come on.

Hadiya: Yeah, no, I understand a hundred percent.

Ken: There's that whole dynamics anyways. Oh, we touched on a lot of good stuff. and you, you also spoke about what's on the news.

Hadiya: So many things on the news too. What are your friends talking about?
Roe vs. Wade talking about COVID you're talking about the protests

Ken: I'm talking about protest specifically because it seems to be like a whole thing. How do you feel when you see the news come out? And the very end of the protest and they're showing all of these distractions that just happened from a riots. And it seems to be like what some media try to focus on today.

Hadiya: so I'm saying things I shouldn't say on a public podcast, forgive me for my phrasing. Honestly, I don't feel anything. Let me explain. Right? Right. So when I, another reason I'm in therapy, so I'm 30 years old and I moved to Colorado right after Columbine happened.

Right. So I went to school with, at the beginning of the school shooting drills and all the other things. Right. So that happened. I know people who died in like the Aurora shooting. I had family that died in 9/11. So I have like anxiety around not knowing where people are. Right. And then Ferguson happened and just coming from two parents who are very well-read and very informed and that we were very well-educated on where not to go and why and the politics and all the things.

I am so over exposed to all the things. Not only am I unsurprised when things happen, right? Cause like knew about Rosewood and the KKK before high school. Right? So these things are not surprising to me also going to school in white neighborhoods.

It is not nearly as surprising to me as it seems to be up to other people that white people don't get the same information we do. So I understand to a painful extent, the dynamics of everything that's happening. Right. When people are protesting for certain things. That are actually impossible to attain through the legal system as it is today.

When I'm talking about whether or not you can gain justice it's if the judge or the jury, whoever it is is allowed to charge this person with this crime, because. You know of how the system is set up and the fury that is going to follow because the answer is no, you know what I mean? Like I am aware of all these things.

Does it hurt any less? No, for me, it's a lot more or traumatic to realize that I expect this of the world that I live in. Right. Or like me being followed home by a white police officer in Atlanta is terrifying. Right. But unsurprising, right. Especially when. Driving to Atlanta. I was in Tennessee Appalachian and I looked stopped to get gas and looked up and it was like floor to ceiling, Confederate flags.

Like I know the country that I live in. So I think a big part of what the protest and all this like racial unrest or however you want to phrase it has impacted me has really made me be more intentional about turning inward and self care because you know, like Ahmaud Arbery got shot jogging right anywhere. People jog all the time, you know, it's so insane to think .

Ken: about that jogging incident I did something very similar literally a week before that came out on the news. There used to be CVS right across from the safeway. And it was completely empty. It was hard to see what the signs were. And I was really curious and there was no blockade or anything. So I went in there as like a curiosity thing and came right back out and I saw the video online, like the security camera of the neighbor that watched him go in and out.

And I'm just like, like in the moment, like you're not thinking about, wow, I just did something that could cost me my life. Right. I mean, you know, it's an open space. It's, it's an unoccupied space. Like I do this all the time with everything in my neighborhood. Like if something is not right. You know, it's not marked, I'm curious, like, Hey, I want to know I'm putting my phone out, checking out the County map and figuring things out and watching somebody die because of that. So I dunno, it rubbed me so weirdly it was [too much]

Hadiya: That's the part that gets me where it's a lot of intersectionality of the trauma right. In the last couple of months, because we're talking about, I think as a woman, I found myself and like the current financial, you know, whatever, whatever of America and millennials, I find myself very much of the mind that I'm not going to have kids till I can afford to have kids.

Right. Like I'm going to be intentional about it, but then you're talking about Roe vs. Wade and fighting for the right to be able to have that choice. Right. And then you talk about where the mortality rates for black mothers sit. Right. So when you decide to have a kid, you might die giving birth to sad kid, right?

Or, and then dealing with the fact that you might like, it terrifies me to think of having a black son in this country. Right? Imagine you like blood, sweat, and tears into this child, and then go to the park with their friends and just don't come home. And not like, we're not talking about teenager party.
We're talking about. Going a child going to the park with their friends. Like, that's it. Yeah. Going to the park late.

There was a kid that was in like a Walmart. He had a BB gun in a Walmart and they just showed up and shot him. Yeah. It's one thing to have a conversation with your children about don't be here after dark, or don't talk back to the cops and set it up.

But like when the cops show up and shoot your kid on site, like that is terrifying. So I think a lot of the protests, like I am for it. I've donated to the causes that support them and make sure they have like resources, made sure they have Lyft rides and like all the things, but I cannot, I don't have the bandwidth to be at a protest.

I just don't have it in me. So I make a point to not only put my energy into self care, make it easier for people to do their own self care. Right. Or make it easier for them to. Access to re the resources to have used, do perform self care. Or if I see something I'm like, Oh, maybe somebody can use this.

Ken: And, by the ways, you're freaking good at it. This is actually how we, I mean, 50% of how we ended up having this conversation is that the kind of stuff that you inform yourself with is, you know, is remarkable. I see them and I'm like, it's always, always, always pushing the envelope. Yeah, you'll see, you'll see something and be like, Oh, I need a copy of that into my notes.

I think your message is literally systems first very important, but inner work, second, very important and acknowledging the nuances of this gigantic problem and be seen at it from very, very interesting perspective, which is not, this is early, like, I think mainstream is focused on like, we are all acting as if, you know, if you went to the progressive website and you picked up out of the policies and if you knock them all out loud into laws, everything is going to change and the world will be better.

Hadiya: But you know what, too? I realized I do a lot of research into like neurodiversity and things like that. And trying to figure out why intelligent people who think they are well-informed cannot seem to agree on the facts. Right. And a lot of it is, comes down to the way things were presented. And I think that's a really big part about us moving forward is giving information that really impacts people.

And really like they can consume it, right. Not everybody, not everybody consumes information the same way. Not everybody. It doesn't mean the same thing to people and just being really cognizant of that. Not everybody has the privilege of voting. Right. But people have the privilege of donating, right. Or like, Doing things that are getting of in volunteering and making those things clear because a lot of the conversation is my vote doesn't matter.

How much impact can I make and really articulating to people like how their actions can impact their surroundings, their neighborhood, their lives, right?

How their vote can have an impact, how their dollar can have an impact, things like that. I think we live privileged life living up here, right.
Where we have like access to funds, like all these things, right. Where we have the privilege of like, finding out how we can actually have a good impact. And I think this is a problem across the board with anything having to do with like social unrest or racism or anything where yes, we see, and yes, we care, but what does that mean?

And I think that's what leads to people being not disinterested, but apathetic. Yes, I care. But what's next, but what does that mean in 2020? And I think being comfortable with your limitations, your boundaries. And still being able to do that. Being able to affect change in a positive way, in a way that makes you comfortable and keeps you comfortable.

It's where we should be or where we should be striving to get.

Ken: Wow. Aint that a beauty you speak so well.

Hadiya: I'm so proud of myself

Ken: Listen, we, we going to have to do this again? This is not, it's not the end

Hadiya: of the secret sauce. Just feed me.

Ken: Thank you.